attacking off spin?
Printed From: Cricket World
Category: Let's Talk Cricket
Forum Name: Coaching
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URL: http://www.cricketworld.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2845
Printed Date: 19 June 2013 at 5:46pm
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Topic: attacking off spin?
Posted By: jhj87
Subject: attacking off spin?
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:17pm
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outside the subcontinent can a conventional off spinner still be attacking? before you say monty panesar i mean right arm off spin, so no rough patches to aim at. do you think off spinners will ever truly be an attacking option for the captain or used simply to choke runs while the quicks have a rest? |
Replies:
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:24pm
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I think to be honest, no. Even really accurate offies like Gareth
Batty, Robert Croft, Dan Cullen and Jamie Dalrymple just aren't
dangerous at all, not even on spinning wickets. Harbhajan has never
taken many wickets away from home and he's the best in the world.
Nowadays you have to be a leggie to cause problems.
------------- [ |
Posted By: jhj87
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:30pm
| i dont think harbhajan is the best off spinner now. powar the other indian spinner is very good. he doesnt have a doosra and i think this helps him as he relies on flight and subtle changes in pace. he bowls very slowly at around 45mph most of the time while harbhajan isn't as subtle and a bit quicker 55mph relying on the spin more. |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:31pm
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Mate, if you think powar is the best off spinner then you are incredibly wrong its just not funny
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Posted By: jhj87
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:35pm
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well how is harbhajan better than powar? |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:38pm
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Powar hasn't even played a test match and Harbhajan has played 57 and
done reasonably well. Powar has just played against other average
indian domestic teams.
------------- [ |
Posted By: jhj87
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:42pm
| yes but he has much more potential than harbhajan. first of all he is more accurate. he bowls it slower and gives it more flight, getting more dip and bounce because he spins it more than harbhajan. harbhajan has a doosra but hardly anyone ever gets out to his because most batsman pick it straight out of his hand. powar is a proper off spinner and i think that after kumble retires he will take the extra spinners spot. |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:45pm
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I think youre crazy, he hasnt done that well in ODI so they arent just
going to dump Singh because of some average spinner. Singh has
fantastic statistics and always looks dangerous when he bowls. Just
because Powar gives the ball air means nothing I'm afraid. Singh does
that sometimes, I think Powar does it because he isn't accurate enough
to bowl darts. Singh is a more diverse cricketer and I would like to
see Powar get 32 wickets in a 3 match series.
------------- [ |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:50pm
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If he had more potential then Harby wouldn't be playing!! ------------- |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:54pm
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exactly my point
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Posted By: jhj87
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:55pm
| im pretty sure he will take harbhajans spot in the future. the indian cricket board do not think much of him because of his ever expanding waistline. |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 9:55pm
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What's Powar like with the bat? In comparison to Harb? ------------- |
Posted By: jhj87
Date Posted: 01 January 2007 at 10:01pm
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hes a better batsman than harbhajan. he averages 21 in odi's and 32 in 1st class cricket. he also has a better bowling average and strike rate than harbhajan. |
Posted By: slogger72N/O
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 9:32am
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I've never really rated powar to be honest, he just never gets the batsmen into that much trouble, he's too easy to work out ------------- |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 5:38pm
Is Powar not about 30 stone heavier than Harby?  The only person that get in a test side overweight is Warney. ------------- |
Posted By: Freddie
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 5:52pm
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What about Murali anyone? ------------- On extended leave... |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 5:53pm
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True, nobody comes down the wicket to Murali. ------------- |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 6:10pm
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Harbhajan is much better than powar. Look at harbhajan's test stats and odi as well compare to powar. Harbhajan can rip it too! Don't be mistaken at all! ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 6:27pm
he doesnt count, we are talking about orthodox off spinners. ------------- [ |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 6:30pm
That is because he is playing diabolical bowling attacks, its the equivalent of averaging about 22 in English county cricket. He's just your bog standard bowler who I doubt will play more than a dozen tests for India. Harbhajan however is a fantastic talent and has statictics that are better than the legendary Lamce Gibbs! But I see your point in replacing the worlds greatest orthodox off spinner with a small fat dolly bowler.....NOT!!!  ------------- [ |
Posted By: TCA123
Date Posted: 02 January 2007 at 9:27pm
Perhaps the many wicket difference ------------- Offspinner, Right Arm Bat |
Posted By: youngmurali
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 3:11pm
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Murali of course is in an offspinning league of his own.
Next i would look at harbhajan then powar. harbhajan really isn't that effective some other offspinners on their day could outclass harbhajan but the doosra gives him alot of brownie points. If he didn't have the doosra, would he be as highly rated?
|
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 4:10pm
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Which other off spinner today can out bowl harbhajan more than murali??? ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 4:18pm
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Sehwag. ------------- |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 4:25pm
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------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 8:11pm
Harbhajan was most successful without the doosra so it shows how much you know. We are talking about orthodox off spinners so Murali doesnt count. No offspinner can outclass Harbhajan today, you are talking rubbish. ------------- [ |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 8:12pm
Actually he is a good off spinner . I would hesitate in naming Gayle as one of the worlds best off spinners. Recently he has been getting hundreds of wickets.------------- [ |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 03 January 2007 at 8:14pm
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He's not that bad. He does turn the ball (Sehwag). Vettori's a bit tasty, if he counts. ------------- |
Posted By: youngmurali
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 10:33am
if harbhajan was that good, wouldnt he get in the india side ahead of Kumble? Obviously he isn't THAT great, im not saying hes bad, but hes not going to bowl teams out like murali
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Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 4:11pm
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Fair enough, but he should be playing in this match. He said to someone: 'Mate, I missed out on 10 wickets today!' ------------- |
Posted By: TCA123
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 6:01pm
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Kumble is an excellent spinner. His quality makes India feel they don't need Harbhajan. ------------- Offspinner, Right Arm Bat |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 7:30pm
Harbhajan is the best finger spinner in the world but he is not as good as Anil Kumble. I am correct. ------------- [ |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 7:32pm
No you're not!  ------------- |
Posted By: shan
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 7:00am
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What do you call Murali? He's definately not a leggie, and you say he's not an offies either, then what do you call that 70Ds? I wish to learn a lot from you. ------------- "Excellence is something we can reach for; perfection is God's business." |
Posted By: Chin Music
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 10:13am
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There's wrist-spin amd there's finger-spin, then there's Murali...I like to think of him as "elbow-spin" ------------- Turnham Green CC Fast bowler & middle/lower-order bat |
Posted By: RightHandBat
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 10:32am
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..or wrist off spin. Sounds better than elbow-spin.
------------- "His classical hits down the ground, met with a checked drive, were Tendulkar at his best. It was though he had a new lease of life." - Sachin Tendulkar's return to cricket with a 91-Ball century. |
Posted By: Chin Music
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 10:54am
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The point is it's not an orthadox action even slightly so it can't be categorised
------------- Turnham Green CC Fast bowler & middle/lower-order bat |
Posted By: shan
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 1:03pm
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What about wrist off- elbow spinner, it would make both of you happy and wouldn't even bother the great Murali from taking batsmen's wickets and making them look like a fool. ------------- "Excellence is something we can reach for; perfection is God's business." |
Posted By: Chin Music
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 2:49pm
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How about freakishly-bendy-double-joint-spin?
------------- Turnham Green CC Fast bowler & middle/lower-order bat |
Posted By: slogger72N/O
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 4:58pm
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Thats a bit of a mouthfull isn't it, what about unorthodox spin? ------------- |
Posted By: youngmurali
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 6:25pm
| muralispin anyone? |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 7:05pm
Murali is not an orthodox off spinner. He is an unorthodox off spinner. He is so much better than every other off spinner in the world that this would be a boring discussion if he were involved, I'm trying to discuss if finger spin is still effective and that means spinning it in an orthodox way like Harbhajan or Powar. If you want to involve Murali in the discussion then thats fine. Murali is the bestt offy in the world. He is capable of attacking with off spin. There, that is the discussion finished. Get my point? ------------- [ |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 05 January 2007 at 7:14pm
I think everyone agreed no about 300 years, though mate! Just look attoday with Paul Harris: super spin-friendly pitch, 1 wicket in 22 overs! ------------- |
Posted By: warnester
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 6:03pm
| im not being funny here but we could see orthodox offspin die into a part time art, with the likes of symonds and sehwag being the top level in years to come....... theyre not even bad bowlers and do turn it and with dramatic changes of pace and an arm ball could develop to be very dangerous in the one day form especially........ |
Posted By: Pietersen Fan
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 12:46am
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right if youve got a world class finger spinner, offy that is, and you also have a world class left arm pace bowler, why not get the captian to put this left armer on at the other end to make sum nice foot holes, not purposfully but it would work, of even, get you right arm pace bowler to bowl round the wicket early in an innings to the left hand opening batsmen that most international teams have and make some tasty footholes ------------- check out the ultimate spinners guide - spinny.co.nr |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 13 January 2007 at 4:23pm
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Vaas and Murali. There we go! ------------- |
Posted By: slogger72N/O
Date Posted: 15 January 2007 at 7:27am
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I don't reckon Murali really needs footholes anyway, he would spin the ball on anything ------------- |
Posted By: warnester
Date Posted: 17 January 2007 at 7:38pm
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always helps........ |
Posted By: slogger72N/O
Date Posted: 17 January 2007 at 7:39pm
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Well yeah, footholes would help anyone, but Murali could turn the ball on anything, he just turns it more with footholes ------------- |
Posted By: sl_crew
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 3:06am
| i think spinners are truly a wonderful wepon of attacking option 4 captain because spinners have the ability 2 take the pace off the ball which mean the batsman have 2 generate its own speed 2 play his shots and if u look at the history the leading test wicket holders are spineers so spinners are a good atacking option 4 captain |
Posted By: Kallis Fan
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 7:40am
| I think people are referrring to spinners being an attacking option - as in they actually get batsmen out through spin and guile. This is instead of bowling, a tight, miserly line that in the end makes the bat get themselves out - but this is becuase of pressure. |
Posted By: Pietersen Fan
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 2:03pm
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he probelm with fingerspinners that can bowl the doosra is that they bowl it far to much, salquain is a good example of this ------------- check out the ultimate spinners guide - spinny.co.nr |
Posted By: Vipera russelli
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 8:16pm
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Off spin art is killed by coaches who could not appriciate the orthadox off spinners with un-orthadox mind set.
1. bowlers who could vary the spin on stock ball (like me) 2. fastish offies, who get batsman beaten for pace and then LBW 3. Offies with a run-up like Saqlain, who spend lot of time on the front foor before delivering the ball The potential of these three types has not been identified by the coaches and it makes all offies uniform, wunlike leggies who are diverse in their styles. ------------- Diuretics are used to look good in TV shows |
Posted By: Cham3Le0n
Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 4:41am
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Well, I dissagree 100% to people who think you have to be a Leggie!!! I mean DAMN, look at Greg Matthews, Formely Of Australia. This guy was Crazy, he was generally an Off Break Bowler, But he Confused the Batsmans so much with His Flight Spin and His Action. And he took 512 wickets in his career. So NO you dont have to be a leggie, look at all the great Spinners, they have all been hit for 6... You just have to imprivise when it comes time to Bowl, you have to think "How can I beat him in flight, How can I bowl around him" etc. I mean No wonder there are more Fastbowlers these days........Because Negative people actually think that Seam Bowling is the only key to success. Yes I'll agree with you when you say Leggies are sometimes more Consistent and Confusing than Offies, but thats generally based on the bowlers style. Cameron White of Australia is probably in my opinion a very Average Leg Spinner. He doesnt bowl Leg Breaks very often, all he bowls is Toppies and Googly's, and to be onest it doesnt usually get him very far. Thus why you'll see someone like Micheal Clarke Bowling more than him, because Clarke Reduces Runs, and he is capable of taking wickets. Not to say I dont like leggies "HELL NO" Sachin Tendulkar is one of my Fav's and he is an Excellent Leggie.
My point is If you are Capable of Changing your Length,Pace,Action etc. Then anything is possible. I do agree that Leggies are often more Capable of taking wickets, But Offies are Fully capable also!!! |
Posted By: Cham3Le0n
Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 4:48am
| and yea Fishcake14...........Thats another point I have been wanting to Make,Its the Offspinner, not the Pitch,Ball weather etc. Paul Harris Puts basically NO SPIN on the ball, it wouldnt turn on a Trampoline :P. He is a SLOW left arm bowler that is Still very capable of taking wickets, but Spinners like him are the ones which alot of you guys think represent ALL offies or Orthadox Bowlers. NO, Some Turn the ball, some dont, either way they are there for a reason, they can do damage regardless of what people think of them!!! |
Posted By: Cham3Le0n
Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 4:55am
You see... I'm not the only person here who thinks that any Off Spinner is capable. Virender Sehwag is like My Favourite Offie, he turns the ball a mile and often turns a dead end into wickets. And even Andrew Symonds is very capable...I think his Pace Bowling should be put aside, unfortunately due to the fact that he changes between Pace and Spin so often...He cant usually Settle with one Style. this is bad because he doesnt understand alot of variation In Off Spin. He can Bowl a good Arm Ball, but he rushes through his deliveries. both these guys are to some people very 'Average' of spinners, But at least I know that I'm not the only person here who believes in Off Spin, and beleives that perhaps with some Support, these Bowlers could really accomplish some Great things. Thanks 'Warnester' |
Posted By: sana_boy
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 2:45am
| i think they can b attacking because spinners have the ability 2 take of da speed of da ball so yea |
Posted By: Vipera russelli
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 10:34am
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Offies can take wickets!! My goodness that is true! the problem is current day spinners rely too much on doosra (Yes! Murali! my finger is pointed at you!) and flipper, they forget the classic dismissal types of offies.
Why Murali and Harbhajan are so reluctant to bowl round the wicker to RHB? they definietly set a negative mind set in the next generation. I personally love to bowl round the wicket to RHB, and to pitch it 3-4 inches out side off stump to win LBWs. When bowling over the wicket most offies bowl too straight. Very rarely you see an orthadox offie attacking off sump and keeping the square cover open for batsman to have a go. It's exceedingly rare to see a offie flighting it over the eye line of the batsman too. ------------- Diuretics are used to look good in TV shows |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 4:33pm
Ok, but take Ashley Giles and Monty Panesar:
Paul Harris has been lucky in the fact he's played on very spin-friendly pitches. The day the pitch isn't helpful will most probably be the day he'll be less useful. ------------- |
Posted By: Pietersen Fan
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 4:39pm
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yep i agree fishy, turn makes variations more effective, also the turn allows him to bowl a more attacking line and not get slogged, if giles bowled the line that panesar does he would get hit for 6 more often than not ------------- check out the ultimate spinners guide - spinny.co.nr |
Posted By: fishcake14
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 4:59pm
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Exactly, which is pretty much why Giles doesn't bowl anymore! ------------- |
Posted By: legspinner102
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 5:31pm
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u shuld try doing front defence right at the pitch of the ball.keep ya bat straight so and angled downwards so it doesnt go for a catch.
P.S LEAN FORWARDS!!! ------------- |
Posted By: 70_degree_spin
Date Posted: 03 March 2007 at 6:10pm
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we are talking about bowling off spin, why have you just told us how to play it?
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Posted By: legspinner102
Date Posted: 04 March 2007 at 11:19am
woops! wrong thread. sorry ------------- |