most test runs
Printed From: Cricket World
Category: Letter To The Editor
Forum Name: Player Discussion
Forum Discription: Player discussion, comparisons and memories
URL: http://www.cricketworld.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5021
Printed Date: 25 May 2013 at 5:36am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.71 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: most test runs
Posted By: punterrulz
Subject: most test runs
Date Posted: 15 November 2009 at 11:22am
| Will Tendulkar finish with the most test runs and stay ahead or is ponting or even graeme smith who has 6 and a half thousand runs at 28 reach the top? |
Replies:
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 15 November 2009 at 11:28am
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Smith isn't a 'run machine'. More games doesn't mean more runs.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: MalhotraRaj84
Date Posted: 15 November 2009 at 11:37am
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Punter is 1 year 7 months younger and 1500 runs behind than Sachin.Now it's tougher than a complex imaginary equation to explain.Only time will tell ------------- Race to No 1 again ... started! |
Posted By: sam_ahmed
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 4:56am
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Difficult to say this, Sachin may not retire soon, while Ponting may retire a little early, but then AUS play more tests than IND in a calender year... If I were to guess, I'd say Sachin will remain at the top. ------------- God is a better planner... so whenever u'r plan fails, cheer up... God has a better plan for you! |
Posted By: bladescape
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 5:34am
Agreed ------------- You know, I'm trying to decide whether to change my siggy or not... |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 9:04am
Ponting has no intention to retire in tests. He has indicated that he wants to play the Ashes in 2013 in England, which is 4 years away. Will Sachin still be around then? He'll be 40 years of age and for all we know Ponting will play til 2015. ------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: MalhotraRaj84
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 9:49am
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When Sachin will be 40 years , Punter will be 38.5 years.Can Ponting and Sachin keep their slot at later stages is a big question.It is not that easy to answer it,it may seem easy that they will play as long as they want.As they approach 38's ..their fitness counts a lot, need to be rock solid internally and mentally. Sachin has slight advantage in two things, 1. not too many tests Indians play 2. Indian board would not put pressure on Sachin if his returns are a bit less,on other hand CA is not that liberal.Had Waughs, Taylor, Hayden, Gilchrist been Indian players they could have extended by a year or two.The backup talent pushes hard in Australia.
Punter will not be playing when he is 38 is my guess,but you never know.I feel punter has got 3 years max in any form. ------------- Race to No 1 again ... started! |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 10:00am
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If India plays less tests then Sachin won't play as many tests right? Hence less chance to make runs. Ponting could play 35 tests in the next 3 yrs (and he wouldn't have his 38 yet) while Sachin may only play 23 and would be almost 40. You logic is totally off mate. ------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 12:41pm
| Ponting says he wants one last crack at the ashes in england. I think he should retain his form enough to be able to make that tour. It is quite concievable that aus could play 40 tests by then. Tendulkar says he wants to win the world cup for india in 2011 which he may well do. I get the impression though that if he makes that world cup he will call it quits win loose or draw. The problem is as milkman has suggested is that india dont play as many tests as aus. Its looking like ponting but will be interesting to see who finishes on top. Smith has crept up too. Hes 28 and can play on for at least another 8 years. He already has 6500 runs which could see him slightly ahead of either tendy or punter. Granted he is no run machine and seems to miss an awfull lot of matches but I still think he has a chance. I am dissappointed to see gibbs out of test cricket too. He had flair and was good to watch. |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 12:45pm
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Raj actually nailed himself on this one... he said Sachin will play longer than Ponting because India play less tests. It's irrelevant how long you play, it's about how many innings you can play so as to make runs!!!!!!
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 12:51pm
| Yes actually if india did play more tests, as many as aus for example tendy could be way out of pontings reach. There was a period a while back when india only played on average about 5 tests per year compared to aus s 12. If not for this tendy could have over 14 000 by now. Ponting will come close on the fact he plays more innings. Also if hatden was never dropped when he initially was he could have been close too. |
Posted By: MalhotraRaj84
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 1:05pm
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The more you play after certain age more likely you are getting injured mate.Aussies calender is much tighter than Indians.Sachin on the other hand is choosing certin ODI series , does not play T20I.Yes Sachin will play less compared to punter in same duration,but Indians are likely to play 2 innings in a match, Aussies 1 innings is sufficient many a times.What we are doing is speculating things, we will never know how actually things will pan out. We are thinking in terms of Punter and Sachin, Look at Jac he is the dark horse according to me.------------- Race to No 1 again ... started! |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 1:06pm
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More games means more injuries. Sachin may have retired had he played ~12 tests a year... that would mean in his 20 year career ~240 possible tests.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 16 November 2009 at 2:26pm
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Ponting isn't in his run machine form guys, that's another thing to take into consideration and Raj has a point. The Aussies selectors don't care who you are, when they think your time is up, it is up. Ponting will be under a bit more pressure than Sachin in that regard! ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:02am
| All good points. Tendulkar may certainly have not been around now had india had a tighter scheudle. The limited number of games india play has certainly helped him. Ponting on the other hand hasent been too effected with injuries considering the amount of cricket he plays. Sachin is definitely more injury prone. Yes and also india do bat more often in tests then australia and yes the aus selectors are ruthless. Names and reputation seem to mean nothing to them. I understand that to a point but not to the point it is hammered home by the aus selectors. ponting would need to retain his current form with no real drops untill the 2013 ashes for him to remain in the team. Any drop in form could see the media and selectors dismiss him as ruthlessly as many others in the past. What is this aus obsession with negativity? why must the slightest drop in form result in doomsday predictions? |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:18am
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Spin is wrong. Hussey played 16 tests without a ton, Mark Taylor played 12 tests without a ton, Steve and Mark Waugh were both way past it and were still given an extended run. Hayden couldn't buy a ton and realised he was letting the team down and retired - I think that was different. Ponting won't be dropped at a whim, I can guarantee that. ------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:30am
| Yes mark had definitely had it when he was booted. Steve was given an extended stay cos of his captaincy and more intact batting abilities. Even though pontings by far and away the best batsmen in the team I can see questions and pressure every time he has a failure. I hope you are right about ponting as aus will miss him greatkly when he goes but Im not sure that the selectors realise this. Clarke is being groomed constantly but im not sure he will ever be a ponting with bat or as captain. Ponting is holding that team together in my opinion and if he goes I hate to think. |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:51am
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Ponting has also indicated that he would continue playing if captaincy removed from him. He`s not a selfish cricketer by all means and he wants to play for a long, long time.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 5:07am
| I agree. He just loves the game. Alot of players so they are not selfish but in pontings case I genuinly believe it. Loves to bat and play for aus, his personal record is of little value to him. |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:47pm
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All i'm saying is milkman, Ponting better keep his form, Hayden would have been discarded hadn't he called it a day, no doubt about that. I know he won't be dropped right away, the Aussie selectors aren't as brainless as the Windies own for example. ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 6:34am
| No but close to it. How else do you explain some of their selections during the ashes? Im still dissappointed in the west indian selectors for dropping richards before the 92 world cup and showing lara the door after his magnificant tour of pakistan in 07. Incredulous! |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 29 November 2009 at 4:18pm
It will be tight. Ponting still has Lara to get past who is about 800 runs ahead and Dravid is slowly catching up to him (only 218 runs behind and in very good form) but India only has 5-6 more Tests in the next year which is sad  . But time wise and innings wise, Ponting has more than Tendulkar so he will prob cross him in runs and maybe even centuries.
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Posted By: MalhotraRaj84
Date Posted: 29 November 2009 at 4:40pm
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What if little master keeps playing only in tests after 2011 worldcup.I don't see any reason why he will stop playing tests.Gavasker has been saying Tendulkar can easily play till 40.
If tendulkar plays till 40, then forget about catching him on runs or centuries by any player in future. ------------- Race to No 1 again ... started! |
Posted By: bladescape
Date Posted: 30 November 2009 at 9:58am
I think there are two people going overboard here. I don't think Ponting will pass Tendulkar,but I don't think that Tendulkar will be 'unpassable'. ------------- You know, I'm trying to decide whether to change my siggy or not... |
Posted By: zuhair_abbasi
Date Posted: 01 December 2009 at 9:26am
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Tendulkar will certainly be unpassable if he plays till 40. You wont see many test players playing for as long as 20 years in the future. ------------- http://thecricketinsight.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 01 December 2009 at 12:33pm
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Zuhair has a point there, players break down way to easily nowadays! Look at Jerome Taylor, he can't play one series and go back the sameway he came! ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 01 December 2009 at 12:36pm
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A lot of them would have still played 20 years back. They physios and what not are telling them they are injured but the player is still fit enough to play. They are to precautious these days.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 02 December 2009 at 1:42am
| But overall, injuries are much much more common nowadays and not just minor ones but major ones more than once a year. And they affect the top players more often too. Example: Zaheer Khan, Pietersen, Flintoff, Bond. The greats who began their careers in the 90s are among the fittest I've seen even at their current age. Dravid, Tendulkar, Kallis, Ponting, Murli, McGrath, Jayasuriya are perfect examples. |
Posted By: Sledger
Date Posted: 02 December 2009 at 12:26pm
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Does longevity mean greatness ? Yes , the guys at the top of the test runs list are fine players , but I still think there were players of the highest class that aren't anywhere in that list! Go watch Dexter , Sobers Richards , Pollock and even Milburn - they put bums on seats! ------------- Mental disintegration works for me !! |
Posted By: zuhair_abbasi
Date Posted: 02 December 2009 at 12:45pm
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No it doesn't mean greatness Sledge. And I think nobody here made it a point either. But to be on the stage for so long does indicate you have to be a very fine player. Fitness and longevity have to be given their due share when judging players. ------------- http://thecricketinsight.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 02 December 2009 at 12:45pm
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Bradman and Hobbs played a hell of a lot of cricket, not as much test cricket as they could have due to the war, but nonetheless a lot of tests and FC games. Longevity is one of many factors that come into play when assessing how great a player is. It indicates hunger and passion, but also fitness. The question is whether we look at statistics/performances or actual talent when assessing greatness. For instance, Sobers was very naturally talented in all facets of the game, while Kallis has quite a few limitations (for example, his inability to accelerate and 'change gears' , instead of going with the flow of the game). Or the ability of Warne versus the statistics of Muralidaran. ------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 02 December 2009 at 11:54pm
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If you are not fit, then it means your careless, unlucky. In order to be a good player, you need to be able to last long and talent/hardwork does the rest. All those players you mentioned Sledger were very good but they must have lasted long enough for them to be recognized even today. My knowledge before the 90s and for that matter even 2000s is a little limited and the fact that I know who you are talking about shows how good and fit they must have been. If you make your debut at 34 and play until 37 but with consistency, you will be remembered but in that same time if you were injured for the most part, you would not be remembered or considered great.
On a side note, Kallis can change gears and so can Dravid. They wouldn't have lasted long if they could not. Just check their T20 records and it says enough about their adaptability. |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 03 December 2009 at 2:18pm
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Guys like Dravid and Chanderpaul can change games but they played in a team where it was really required. Kallis doesn't really change gears much, seems pretty careful about not losing his wicket!
For me, one of the reason why Cricketers break down a lot these days is because of weights in the gym!! I had an experience once where I did strictly weights for 2 weeks and I just had to stop, cramps came by way to easily for my liking in my arms and side muscles (was training my upper body).
Weights as far as I understand makes the muscle tighten so it isn't as loose to bend in the desired positions that is required especially for fast bowlers and fielders who want to be very good in the field. ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 04 December 2009 at 12:27am
You mean not required. Sachin, Yuvraj, Sehwag, Dhoni, Lara, Gayle, Sarwan. All of them are top class players with a very good strike rate in all formats. This forced Dravid, Chanderpaul to slow down as someone was needed to anchor and keep the innings steady. No one other than them could do it perfectly so they had to keep their speed limited unless needed. I agree about the weights but I'm sure the players know what they are doing and they must have really good physios so I don't think weights would be too much of a factor. They tend to injure themselves a lot on the field or right after a game or just before a big series. I think they are just not being careful enough. |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 04 December 2009 at 12:51pm
Yeah DF, I mean not really required - damn, my brain has been off song lately.  ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 05 December 2009 at 3:40am
Now that I look back at it, it was a petty mistake I should have overlooked. 
|
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 05 December 2009 at 2:37pm
| Dravid now 70 runs behind Ponting. I'm guessing this is the closest he'll come in catching up as he has very few games left. |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 05 December 2009 at 2:50pm
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Ponting has a few more games to make some more runs. Don't think Rahul will overtake him DF I'm afraid. Dravid's been the most solid player for India for a long time and those 2 tons would have done a heck of a lot for his confidence. How much longer you reckon he's got? I think he never wants to retire but I don't think he'll want to be dropped and never picked again either. I reckon 1-2 years max, as there's some nice talent in India at the moment and the rest of the batsmen are doing well.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 05 December 2009 at 4:10pm
| Yes milkman is right. Dravid is not the quitting type but i think this is the last test plays for a while. Ponting on the other hand has this test and 6 more in the next few months. I know dravid has 2 tests against bangladesh and 3 against sth africa a little later but he is 2 years older then ponting. He has cvome into some form though. I still think its a two horse race for this one with kallis being a dark horse but in his form i think hes almost gone too. If tendulkar plays till the 2011 world cup like he wants to he may be uncatchable. Can ponting score whats hes behind by after tendy retires? I think tendy could be unctachable in this regard. |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 05 December 2009 at 4:11pm
| make that 7 more. |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 06 December 2009 at 3:40am
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I never said Dravid will cross him guys. I'm just happy that he came this close and hope he makes two more hundreds. And I don't think there is a Test series against South Africa so even less time!
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Posted By: Sledger
Date Posted: 09 December 2009 at 5:30am
Agreed . Hunger goes a long way as well and I've a sneaking feeling that the top blokes quite like playing the game !  ------------- Mental disintegration works for me !! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 11:02am
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Yeah there is a test seriers against sth africa for dravid in march i think. Also before that there is a two test seriers against bangladesh.
On an earlier theme, many of the greats are no where near the top of the run scoring list. Bradman, sobers, pollock, b richards, headley, weekes, huttpon, hammond, sutcliffe all these players greats of their time but due to their laxck of runs often dont rate a mention apart from bradman and sobers. Tendulkars 20 years at the top dont necessarily constitute greatness but a hunger and ability to stay in the team for a long period of time after being good enough at a very young age. I hate to think what graeme pollock would have done had he played more tests. I think we d all be rating him at number two in any all time list of gtreat batsmen.
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Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 11:05am
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Key word you have used to describe Sachin is hunger. He hasn't stopped playing cricket for probably 30 years now , since he was a kid and top level cricket for 20 years. I suppose even if he only played 60 tests he'd still be up there and the fact that the very best , Bradman, stated that Sachin was the one batsman he saw that was most similar to him (and Bradman saw all those played you mentioned above) then that's a big claim on his part. Sachin is in my top 5 batsmen ever that's for sure and I'm not a huge fan of his, although it might come across that way.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 11:13am
| The thing that annoys me a little with tendulkar is that i think he is a much better player then his record suggests. I am personally dissappointed for him that people have tried to distract from his performances. I think he is a great batsmen and deserves all his accoloades but as with mark waugh people may in time question him as a batsmen. Hes not a big century maker, has lost a lot of his consistency which is natural with age and has quite a poor record in big matches overall. I think he is or has been much better then what he has done in the game. I know he has done alot and ppl may critisise me for saying it but most of his records have come from his longevity and not his greatness, i think he should have achieved more for his length of time in the game. |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 11:17am
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He's not the same since those tennis elbow and other injuries. Probably since 2001 or 2002 he's just a different player. I think for the sake of his legacy he should have retired, but obviously that means little to him.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 11:34am
| Yes thats what I said in an earlier post. He is doing himself no favours by continuing in the game as he is slowly going down hill with no chance of regaining anything of his former self. I fear it may be his declining years that he is remembered for most and not the time before his slow descent. I can pinpoint the exact time and this was indias tour to the west indies in 2001 I think it was. He scored his 29th century to equal bradman, was at the absolute peak of his game then on that same tour had a horrid run of scores and I dont think he has ever recovered since then. |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 12:42pm
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Look, as far as I'm concerned, Tendulkar hasn't done himself no harm by continuing playing. He has still maintained a very good average in both Tests and ODI's and has even adapted to the T20 format for Mumbai in the IPL - it just shows how good he is.
The only thing he's lost is treating bowlers with disdain as he use to although at times it comes back. A guy who's lost it still hammered 175 in an ODI?? Come on fellas, he is here for another few years and there is no batsman around today that I'd pay higher money to watch than Tendulkar, well, maybe Sehwag.  ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 3:59pm
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Yeah dont get me wrong tendulkar is still good and one of the best bats around but hes runs arent comming like they used to and ultimately in years to come people are going to rate him on his overall record and not just the earlier part.
I see him a little like viv richards. For people who dont know richards they will look at his record and see good stats with a 50 average and all but batsmen like richards cant be measured by stats alone. Hes far and away better then his stats as is tendulkar but the latter stages of their career pulls their stats down to a mediocre level for them. Lara was exceptional in that he was in fantastic form untill he was gotten rid of. I dont want to see tendulkars average and stats dwindle like richards's although id be very sad to see the end of tendulkar. And yes i know theres so much more to this then stupid stats.
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Posted By: Sledger
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 1:13pm
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No batsman has ever played under the pressure that Tendulkar has had to endure. The expectation has never dropped , especially when playing at home. I'm amazed that he's maintained such a level of excellence and managed to sleep at night !
------------- Mental disintegration works for me !! |
Posted By: MalhotraRaj84
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 6:01pm
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punterluz you might have read recent Aussie media asking Ponting to step down and Katich to lead instead.Get it from me, your Aussie media will ensure that Ponting will retire even before he reaches 37/38.India will easily accept tendulkar till 40's. One more thing Tendulkar will average 55 by the time he signs off or maybe more. ------------- Race to No 1 again ... started! |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:26am
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That is captaincy , not his batting. No one rates him as a captain. And it was not Aussie Media, it was one former cricketer who said that.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:45pm
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Milky, it's not former Test players alone who thinks that way, even my father who supports the Aussie badly says Ponting is not a good captain. ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: milkman
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:53pm
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Yes. I agree look at my posts. He said himself he'd quit captaincy and just play as a batsman. For mine that would be great for Aust cricket.
------------- Ideal cricketer: Bowl like Warne, bat like Tendulkar, field like Jonty!! |
Posted By: DRAVID FAN
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 9:26pm
I don't think anyone feels he is a great captain. he is good but not great although my mom feels that anyone who can maintain a rank no.1 position for long time has to be a great captain whether or not he has the best players in the world Remember the World XI lost to the Aussies in that series where Ponting was captain. But I've never liked him much as a captain. Sometimes I feel Warne could have been captain but I don't think it would have mattered too much for the last 10 years. |
Posted By: bladescape
Date Posted: 17 December 2009 at 7:08am
Yeah,the sleeps the important bit! ------------- You know, I'm trying to decide whether to change my siggy or not... |
Posted By: spin wizard
Date Posted: 17 December 2009 at 12:15pm
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Oh yes buddy, there's hardly a better feeling out there than having a massive sleep! Just a shame we have to wake up next day to go to school/work. ------------- In troubled times, being philosophical helps a great deal, it helps you to remain sane and not do any further damage. |
Posted By: punterrulz
Date Posted: 17 December 2009 at 12:33pm
| Yes I agree Ponting isn't the greatest captain in the world but he maintains that side and I cant see anyone else doing a better job of that then him. And yes MalhotraRaj84 I think the aus media will certainly be the end of Ponting now if he has a slight off patch. I actually can no longer see him making the 2013 ashes and think tendulkar is now uncatchable by ponting or anyone else in terms of test runs. Tendulkar is just a bit too far in advance and as you said the indian media wont jump on him if he goes through a bad patch the way the aus media will with ponting. I dont understand the media obsession with negativity over older players out of form. Id like to see ponting go on to the 2013 ashes but unless he plays at his peak till then I think its an impossibility. I think next summer could be the end of ponting. But as milk said ponting has the desire to stay on as a batsmen regardless of captaincy but I think an attempt will be made sooner rather then later to rid this team of ponting and that is a sad thing. |
Posted By: necoo
Date Posted: 28 August 2010 at 7:54am
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Difficult to say this, Sachin may not retire soon, while Ponting may
retire a little early, but then AUS play more tests than IND in a
calender year... If I were to guess, I'd say Sachin will remain at the
top.
------------- "The King will answer them, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' |